hello and welcome to the voice of reason
podcast or because I don't know how to
set up an RSS feed for some reason this
is the Benjamin Boyce YouTube lecture
interview circuit
today's guest is Paul Van der Clay who
is a pastor of the Calvinist
Reformed Church or a Calvinist Reformed
Church in Sacramento California he also
runs a YouTube channel that discourses
about Christianity and its intersection
with various intellectual currents that
are spinning about that intellectual web
that we are all finding so sticky that
its name is called what it is right now
we're working on that we're trying to
work on that here you go hey Benjamin
hey mr. Vander Clay you can call me Paul
I spoke with somebody who was so polite
last night it was it was kind of
off-putting he kept on calling me sir
like yeah sometimes people call me
Reverend Vander clay and then I think
I'm my father so hmm
oh so you come from a lineage then yeah
both my father and grandfather were crc
pastors oh right on
yeah my dad's a pastor - okay or was I
guess he's just a chaplain now just a
chaplain so he's just dealing with the
end of life I guess you know mmm that's
chaplains chaplaincy can be hard work
yeah absolutely it's if you're if you're
and I have a friend who he's an arm
chaplain and heals with deals with a lot
of there's a lot of wreckage in terms of
PTSD families
he's also been a hospital chaplain or a
hospice chaplain because he's a hospice
chaplain now so you're you're constantly
walking with people through those last
chapters yes
so yeah this brings up a question we
don't need to dive right into the deep
end off the side
so maybe I'll reserve the question in a
little bit but yeah my dad's a pastor or
he was ordained within the covenant
church the Swedish covenant which is a
offshoot of a Lutheran branch yeah
pretty chill folk yeah yeah the
Evangelical covenant folks are are
pretty big into mega church planting
they've got a number of Megas here in
Sacramento oh really oh okay
I'm a little I'm a little bit
knowledgable of them but I'm
dramatically less successful so oh and
do you enjoy like that working with
smaller numbers or does it it would I'm
sure it changes how you communicate when
you scale it up like every everything
that I've never worked with big numbers
so I don't know my father's my father
pastored small churches my grandfather
did so okay it's just kind of been what
I've done so biggest numbers have been
through YouTube lately but and that's
been a strange thing why is it strange I
mean it's pretty fascinating like your
classroom or your parish all of a sudden
becomes the worst yes it's it's strange
because if you're if you're pastoring a
local church a lot of its face to face
relationships and there's no time to
talk and so kind of what I've done with
this YouTube thing is to try to as much
as possible
maintain face-to-face relationships and
have time to talk but as number scale
that's more and more difficult yeah so I
mean I guess you're entering megachurch
territory rapidly it's the it's the
weirdest mega church anyone could ever
imagine I think I'm gonna have to hire a
rock band to open for
get a smoke machine my church is so so
dramatically on mega it would uh it
would take people by surprise how long
have you been a pastor I've well I was a
missionary in the Dominican Republic
before I did this but I've been here at
Livingstone's for 21 years
hmm okay oh wow one church 21 years yeah
okay father did 36 in his first church
so people say Wow 21 years I say yeah
you know 36 is more than 21 and what
what what's your flavor it's a Christian
Reformed Church of North America that's
that's Dutch
it's Dutch Calvinists okay how Calvinist
is it I mean I can't remember all Calvin
but I know Calvin's the big
predetermination predestination yeah
yeah that's that's what he's known for
I'd say that's that's I'd say how could
I describe it nobody can live like that
everybody lives as if they're making
decisions so that that's the freewill
argument that it's much more compelling
to pretend that it's there even if you
don't know if it's there or not yeah I I
think yeah I kind of like it because if
you think about it we are there's so
much of our lives that every decision is
so embedded in context that you know ii
just i always find freewill to be a
dramatic exaggeration of the power we
actually have yeah yeah we're so
embedded in context so yeah and we don't
we really struggle to have any a clear
idea about how say our agency and god's
agency really relate so mm-hmm
i don't know that a lot of participating
on those
kinds of questions really gets us very
far well even you don't even have to go
to the god-man question you can just say
I don't know how much agency I have as
opposed to my sex drive or as opposed to
my stomach yeah that's right that's
right
so until I know things I don't know if I
have any right
[Laughter]
that's right declare my granddaughter on
ax me from the forces of the universe
declare autonomy over my stomach yeah
exactly exactly and that's one of the
that's one of the the questions about
like lent is is lent a part of your
practice or a version of that the the
Dutch Calvinists were a little bit we're
a little bit stubborn about liturgical
calendars okay they so one of the things
that they did was they instilled the
Heidelberg catechism and said we're just
gonna do lord's day so you can find some
really uptight Dutch Calvinists that
don't celebrate anything in the last 20
years or so a lot of them have kind of
been sneaking back and doing liturgical
holiday liturgical seasons such as
Advent and Lent and and we have at
Livingstone's but we we haven't we
haven't you know stopped you know
stopped eating meat or told people that
they should stop drinking during Lent or
anything like that
yeah but I've just bring that up because
the practice of fasting is at least
biblically it's pretty sound and it
seems to me that one of the one of the
purposes of fasting is to really gauge
your mastery and relationship to your
body and then and then parallel that
maybe reflect that to God's mastery over
you or your willingness to surrender to
the will of God yeah precisely but we
have it actually early early reformed
early reformed leaders were known as
sausage eaters while the while the Roman
Catholics were abstaining from meat they
would go ahead and eat sausage publicly
as an act of defiance against
the tyrannical the tyrannical church and
the exclaimed there freedom in Christ by
by munching on a sausage in the town
square so that's that's taking the whole
Protestant thing and turning it into
like a pre-internet role kind of thing
right I'm gonna troll the Pap tests with
our sausage human nature doesn't change
that much are you in going so I'd like
to know a little bit about you I've
watched some of your videos I watched
you play a a game about political
correctness or something it's one of the
videos I watched that I really really
enjoyed I thought it was hysterical yeah
I don't know why they made that but
somebody gave him a lot of money to make
that my trajectory into the YouTube
thing is that I went to a college in the
Pacific Northwest called evergreen that
had a major meltdown yeah and I was
there when it happened and what happened
there was this big protest and the
library got blockaded and people got
taken hostage either I don't know you
can say they did or did not but people
were rounded up by the students and the
students live-streamed the whole thing
berating teachers were rounded up by the
students yeah yeah one of the directors
of the protest I have them on foot is
saying I want you to go around and round
up all the white teachers that you see
and they're gonna be here and they're
gonna listen to us now and everybody's
like okay okay and then they went and I
have the police logs two of of them
describing how students are stopping
cars and searching cars and saying if
you're if you work here you can't leave
so anyways that got like they and they
livestream that onto Facebook and as you
might imagine kind of the YouTube
community kind of erupted and but nobody
was talking about how that actually
happened so I started showing all the
different trainings and the seminars and
the workshops and the lectures that were
putting on this oppressor oppressed
systemic racism every slight is a sin
privileged kind of politic and putting
that into all the students minds and
kind of showing trying to show how that
was this miniature Chinese Revolution
was the result of these various
intellectual steps that the professor's
had made for whatever reason so what got
you into YouTube then what got you into
speaking about this or maybe even what
he got you into Petersen and speaking
about Petersen well I so I it was about
it was probably during the c16 thing
okay I have been following rod drear's
blog I had always been sort of on the
left side of my conservative
denomination because my father's church
was back in the in the 60s my father's
my father's Church was in a black
community in Paterson New Jersey and he
came there because the people who had
been running kind of a a bread Sandt
bread and sandwich hand out mission
wanted to become a church and so he
became quite involved in the black
community and then as the 60s and 70s
rolled on it was kind of a racial
reconciliation Church a church where
black folks and white folks worship
together so so I had always I'd grown up
very much in that milieu so it was a
weird combination of african-american
and Dutch Calvinism mm-hmm kind of a
very strange place and and so and then I
had been a I had been a foreign
missionary and done that and then I came
to Sacramento which was one of those
churches that grew up in the Christian
Church that also had you know a lot of
african-american folks and folks from
lots of different backgrounds very
diverse congregation but I had I had
been noticing this this this kind of
liberation ISM for its own sake that had
been seeming to get you know to pick up
steam in the in the denomination and
whereas I had always been kind of on the
left of the church I'd thought well
there's some there's some other issues
down beneath the surface that we should
probably have more conversation about
instead of just kind of
going off to imagine that this this new
shape of liberation will somehow bring
in some weird political kingdom of
heaven on earth
so I've been I've been reading rod
drear's blog for a while and Jordan
Peterson kind of came up in that and the
thing that struck me was here's a
Canadian professor at University of
Toronto kvetching about non-binary
pronouns and I had a fair amount of
experience with that my kids go to went
to public schools here and been trying
to work that through myself and so so
there was this Canadian professor
complaining about these things
and so I started listening to him and
then I'd noticed that he was having
biblical lectures and then I thought oh
he's some evangelical that somehow wound
up at University of Toronto so I should
listen to his biblical and I started
listening to his biblical lectures now
this isn't an evangelical I've never
quite heard anything like this before
hmm and and it really fascinated me so I
started listening to the biblical
lectures and then I started listening to
maps of meaning and all of that and was
really fascinated and tried to get my
head around what he was doing and then
began to notice all of these people were
saying things like well I started
listening to Jordan Peterson and I kind
of want to go to church and I thought
well that's interesting what's going on
with that so I'd been blogging for years
I'd blogged for a long time and I'd been
blogging about this and then I thought
and I'd been reading Neil postman's
amusing ourselves to death and I thought
there's something about YouTube and
Jordan Peterson there's something about
the medium and the message here and so I
thought well I'll just I'll just make a
youtube video about Peterson just to see
what it's like I'd been playing around
with YouTube and I'd been doing a little
show with a member of my church called
the Freddie and paul show and I just
been playing around like 12 subscribers
and so I just did a I didn't know what I
was doing just made a YouTube about
Jordan Peterson and then woke up the
next day and I had a hundred subscribers
and I thought well that's weird
and then I had a thousand subscribers
and I was very disturbed by this because
I didn't want any YouTube mob messing up
my life but then I thought well maybe I
should make another one and and then
people started writing to me and someone
showed up at my church and gave me this
poster and and I thought well I
shouldn't really turn my back on these
people maybe I'll keep going and I've
kept going and mm-hmm
this is what's happened so I backed into
it yeah yeah I mean that's very similar
to my own story I just like started
speaking and like Oh God like I had like
a little tiny like 40 little subscribers
then like I had thousand like 10,000
like okay this is a this is a real thing
now I got to do I got to do this there's
something that you brought up the other
day you did a long video kind of
deconstructing various things I can't
even I just kind of been watching it for
the last few days and there's so many
different ideas that you're you're
walking through with Pizzo and peterson
and a lot of these different clips and
stuff but one of the things that you say
that's pretty cool about Jordan Peterson
is that you're watching him change
you're watching him grow you're watching
him formulate in real time and that's
such a novel concept and I mean that
like almost literally like the novel is
a story that shows the change of a
character classically speaking or in a
certain way of looking at what the novel
is and I just wonder if if that's what
you think about that and what does that
excite and you to like watch like in
real time like this conversation unfold
this person grapple with things well I
think that's a key aspect at least of
the religious side of what of his
movement so so then I I had all these
people talking to me and wanting to talk
to me and a friend of mine said well you
should do a meet up so all right well do
a meet up why not what could it hurt
probably no one will show up and then 12
people show up and I start to build
relationships with these
people and and I begin to recognize that
Jordan Peterson is like The Truman Show
when it comes to this pathway from from
Sam Harris atheism into hmm we're not
quite sure what it's going to be
Christianity hmm and that's why when
when Peterson is on Dave Rubin with Ben
Shapiro and starts talking about a
metaphysical spirit underneath the world
people freaked out and because they're
they're piecing the world together while
Jordans talking you know doing his
stream of consciousness that yes okay
and what is that I don't know yeah but
it's happening and it's kind of cool and
yeah is is that is that true with with
how you pastor or how you extrapolate
your faith is it kind of like a process
of of grappling with medieval achill
there's metaphor there with Israel you
know I struggle with God and and that
struggle is that somehow like embedded
into Christianity or at least into what
you see Christianity is absolutely I
think this is part of the reason why
preaching especially in the Protestant
tradition preaching is such a powerful
thing because in a sense as pastors work
out their faith and fear and trembling
the congregation does too hmm it's you
know we're not quite the individuals we
think we are we we affect each other in
strange ways that we don't understand
and now this is happening with Jordan
Peterson and and thousands of people yes
as they wrestled with what does it mean
to be a human being
is there a God now should I live what's
most important what's at the top of the
hierarchy is that kind of a safety
mechanism like that that stance towards
a text or towards a belief system of
of development and discovery and perhaps
even invention in certain cases it is
that like a like somehow guards one from
becoming a false prophet or a dictator
or somebody who I know the truth and I
will emblazon you with the truth and
everybody is like we know the truth we
will go forth and prosper the truth kind
of thing I don't think it's a protection
against dictatorships I was I was doing
I would I do crazy research for my
sermons and I was researching the
Cultural Revolution mouse mouse Cultural
Revolution and I saw this clip of
Chairman Mao you know this 70 something
year old man swimming across the yangzi
and his nation behind him so I'd say
actually there's a weakness towards
dictatorship and tyranny in this human
dynamic more than but but I think this
is also a deeply Christian thing because
obviously in Christianity we're supposed
to follow Christ and be like him now
obviously the leader that you're
following and who that leader is and
what that leader believes will probably
be the determinative principle whether
or not you will be a tyrant or you live
out let's say Jesus life which Jesus
comes and lives you know your well being
at my expense all the way to his
crucifixion so depends on who you're
following so the the dictator or the
leader let's say - stripped kind of like
the negative glow off of that the leader
in a sense is mirrored by the followers
and the followers kind of take on the
shape and even a follow to the
conclusions the proposition that the
leader is proposing everybody happens
all the time happens in every single
family the children watch the parents
and you know actions speak louder than
words and there's no place that that's
more true than in the house in the
family mm-hmm then how do you guys how
we are have inside yourself how do you
guard yourself from becoming imprinting
on your children or your followers
characteristics that will lead them in
the wrong direction like how do you do
Saul I know what happens it always
happens it does we do it all the time
and I
I have you know young parents will talk
to me and they you know they want to be
the best parent possible and it's like
well you will screw up they are going to
take on some of your worst
characteristics but they're also going
to take on some of your best so be you
know be the person you want your
children to become that's the best
advice I could give you and do you see
that Jordan Peterson is kind of a leader
then in a way and what you owe and what
do you think he's earned what are the
characteristics that you think are or
that you're worried about or and that
you would like to underscore the one of
the things that caught my attention
right away in some of those early videos
in at at Ontario on and campuses in
Canada was his at least in some in some
videos his his ability to deal
graciously with his adversary and do not
just simply devolve down into who anger
or or rage now he has been he has he has
slipped up and become angry in the past
I think part of the reason that Kathy
Newman interview was so important was
that he kept his cool and was able to
continue to engage her with with a
degree of civility even though many
watching it thought she's she's not
being fair she's not doing as she should
so his skill in that venue I think
taught a lot of people keep you know
keep don't lose yourself keep a hold of
yourself
keep your mind engaged don't let don't
let anger cloud your judgment and fly
off the handle mm-hmm then how do you do
you see that he's kind of being why do
you think he's being a gateway to people
entering into the church is it
specifically because he's talking about
the Bible or is there something even
deeper than the content of his speech
like is it like the methodology of how
he's breaking things apart or the ideas
that he's going towards I think he's
deconstructing some of the shot
hello certainties of what really is late
19th century positivism his
conversations with Sam Harris
you know people kind of listen to it a
lot at the food fight level but just
like mister I don't know if you know who
mr. Plunkett is with the he does he does
Star Wars Star Wars deconstruction
videos on YouTube mr. Plunkett has a
great line he says you didn't notice it
but your brain did and that's what's
happening with Peterson all the time
people are beginning to recognize that
there's a lot more going on between us
than a lot of the cheap certainty that
the the New Atheists were peddling and
so that's why in many ways he's raiding
their house hmm and does that explain
the backlash that he's getting he seems
like he's not getting he's getting a
bigger backlash from leftist media then
he is the new atheist so I'm sure
there's I've seen several videos of
people like going against him on the
religious front or are youing with him
on on that front but no he's getting a
backlash from the left because the left
believes that the left believes the left
believes they have the program for
bringing heaven on earth and those who
don't line up with this program yes you
know must be silenced 2d platformer you
know we'd love to eliminate them but we
don't dare do that at least yet so and
that's you know his his appearance on
Bill Maher I think was a great example
of that because he paused and said you
know what are you gonna do with the half
of the country that voted for Trump they
didn't have an answer for that because
they don't yeah and you know politically
I've never voted for a Republican
presidential candidate I don't know if
I've ever voted for a Republican period
so I mean I grew up I grew up a lefty
yeah but his question what are you gonna
do with with everyone who voted for
Donald Trump they have no answer yeah
and again my master whose jesus says
love your enemies
pray for those who persecute you so well
that kind of leaves a lot of the normal
the normal options for tyrants off the
table hmm what do you mean by that it
leaves them well enough you're supposed
to pray for your enemies you're supposed
to love them okay so that means bigots
over here and that means social justice
warriors over there yeah I'm supposed to
love both sides mmm well how do you do
that it's not easy well just like that
I'm this is not a Bible verse but I've
heard it a lot around Christianity
you're supposed to maybe it is a Bible
verse I don't know you can check me on
this
you love the center and you hate the Sun
kind of thing no it's not a Bible verse
no that's not okay just make it sure
thank you yeah the relationship between
sinner and sin is a lot tougher than we
can easily just kind of split it yeah
but why you sinner okay what's that is
that the same with ideas then like you
like you can really dislike an idea and
say call it dangerous without vilifying
the people who absolutely accept that
yep absolutely
the the difficulty is and and I think
Peterson has done well with this too you
know he had a chapter I think it was the
third chapter in 12 rules for life that
deconstructed that deconstructed our
do-good isms and that was a brutal
chapter I think it was it was terribly
honest because we the video I just did
yesterday I ended with that an epilogue
that was in Tim Keller's making sense of
God where he talks about a a guy in a
Japanese a Japanese prison camp in in
mainland China and talked about how you
put people in an area of deprivation and
they get selfish and petty and cynical
and that's how we are yeah
now here's the question how most of the
time we tell ourselves religious stories
and moral stories that try to place
ourselves in a better light that's also
how we are
and that's not just true of irreligious
people but also religious people and
then the question is how can we in fact
love our enemies when they're really our
enemies and they really want to do us
harm well here you have the story of a
man who prays for his enemies that are
that are crucifying him hmm
well how do you live that out well yeah
how do you live it out without dying out
I mean that's right
unless something you know swoops in
unless you have a deus ex machina come
in and give you bread at the final hour
once you've given all your bread away
which is which is exactly what doesn't
happen on Good Friday and that's and
that's the question of Christianity yeah
you know I I tell people this and
they're like well so then you know if
you listen to Jesus if you're turning
the other cheek and if you're giving
your cloak well then you get hit twice
yeah that's right yeah you say well then
you lose this game of this world you say
yeah that's right and then people say
well that's not a strategy for winning
hmm but what's amazing is that Jesus and
Christianity are still around yeah why
is that why is that now why is that it
makes me think of the I've been reading
a lot of evolutionary biology because I
did a lot of work with Brett Weinstein
and there's this thing called game
theory and I believe it's in the book
the moral animal who's the the author I
can't remember his name but he talks
about the game theory of if everybody is
being generous to everybody else the
system itself will become much stronger
than if everybody's cynical so it does
it works by displacing your own benefit
until like a higher level and if
everybody starts doing that or if enough
people start doing it then that culture
is going to rise to the surface that's
right
and think about what true motherhood is
every mother gives birth to a child at
the risk of her life and that mother
continues to empty herself for the sake
of the child until the mother dies
that's what real motherhood is now it's
beautiful when the child at some point
begins to recognize oh my goodness this
is love and then how does the child then
respond to the mother how does the good
child respond to the mother well by
giving herself for the mother and that's
exactly that okay but you're going to
have situations where the child is
selfish mm-hm and and the mother still
dies
yeah which in my my in my take says
that's why Christianity doesn't work
without the resurrection because what
the resurrection finally says is all of
those all of those people who have loved
their enemies and paid a price for that
with their lives
don't finally lose but what if we're
talking about on a cultural level where
you have a growing contingent of very
stop at nothing people who believe that
they can institute heaven on earth is
there are you just supposed to lay down
your sword and and let them corrupt your
culture on a massive level or do you
need to enter the fray on some level
that's that's that's always a
tremendously difficult answer and it's
it's very hard to add to answer in the
abstract because it's always must be
answered in the particular now part of
Christianity is Romans 13 and the power
of the state and it's the job of the
state to actually use the sword for
order and that in terms of the biblical
story is always countered by the fact
that especially during to say the Roman
Empire states were dramatically corrupt
and incredibly brutal and so you have
the Apostle Peter and the Apostle Paul
say things like submit to the state both
of whom were killed by that state and if
you see if you think Donald Trump is a a
lascivious child you should read
histories about Tiberius or Caligula
or Commodus they make they make Donald
Trump look like a Puritan
yeah but the it was in this context that
Christianity actually flourished hmm and
you'd say well why would it flourish
well the play comes to down and anyone
in their right mind would flee the town
except Christians stayed and cared for
the dying often at the cost of their own
lives mm-hmm and then those who actually
got oh those who actually survived the
plague thought about boy my family fled
town and these Christians actually
stayed and cared for me and the cost of
their life I'd sure like to be like them
and in a weird way that's how
Christianity conquered in a terribly
brutal regime mm-hmm so when you've got
well think about think about the
American civil rights movement
yeah here's the irony of that movement
and why I think a lot of the movements
today that try to appropriate the mantle
of that movement don't understand that
movement because here you have you know
legitimately legitimately oppressed
African Americans who are
through-and-through Christians they're
meeting in church and they're walking on
marches and they're saying things like
the only thing you can't you can't make
me do is hate you so I will not hit back
you can turn the dogs on me you can turn
the fire hose on me but you cannot make
me hate you so go ahead and take my body
and of course the most famed of the most
famous one of the most famous sermons by
dr. King is you know that evening you
know you know I've seen the promised
land I might not get there with you so
all of that has built into it
Christianity and I'd say the the degree
of Christianity that was present in the
culture saw that self-sacrifice and that
then moves the hearts of the bigots
because the question is what are you
going to do with your enemies well if
you are an enemy to your enemies you are
not going to change your heart and all
you're going to do is perpetuate the
cycle
what you have to do is love your enemy
that may mean you may lose your life you
may lose battles and it may go on for
centuries hmm but you you would still
you still actively champion a specific
set of ideas and you elaborate them and
you put them forward you don't just bow
down to any misinterpretation of those
ideas or do you just allow
misinterpretation to to flourish
sometimes but most often not Jesus you
know so then people get the impression
okay so what Jesus was was a doormat
well if you read the Gospels Jesus isn't
a doormat Jesus sometimes says some of
the most obnoxious and offensive things
he calls his he calls his religious you
know he calls the religious leaders of
his people whitewashed tombs I mean he
he says alarming things but then at the
last moment when when they're heaping
mockery on him while he's played naked
on a cross he prays Father forgive them
for they don't know what they do
so Jesus clearly had a capacity to at
one moment be incredibly precise and
critical of his adversaries but at the
other moment it's incredible how he
navigates that first century culture war
because everyone expected him to the
Centurion comes and says will you will
you heal my servant and he does well
this ticks off a whole bunch of people
because you're not allowed to heal a
Centurion servant the Centurions are the
oppressive Roman dictatorship that is
oppressing us and Jesus says no I'm
going to heal him and then the religious
leaders say well don't eat with sinners
well who are the sinners they're tax
collectors and prostitutes are
prostitutes sexual centers or political
centers and Jesus says I'm going to
engage with them and I'm going to talk
with them tax collectors are Roman
collaborators but Jesus goes to
Zacchaeus house and eats with him even
though he's risking ceremonial
uncleanness I mean Jesus crosses all of
these lines but in all of these strange
ways to make his point
and what's that point it's a point about
humanity about what the nature of
humanity yeah that's
right that in in a sense what Jesus does
is takes this Old Testament tradition
that's implicit in the mosaic code of
Israel being a priesthood a nation of
priests to the rest of the world and
then Jesus acts on that and essentially
says Roman centurions are themselves
being oppressed by something that the
Jews are too and I have come to declare
liberation so Jesus is a liberationist
but liberation from what when we started
we started off saying that well maybe
it's liberation maybe I need liberation
from my own appetites I definitely do
maybe I also need liberation from
particular religious tyrannies I
definitely do maybe I also need
liberation from certain political
tyrannies I definitely do but that
liberation must come also with
tremendous self-control and so then Paul
comes in and says you need to be
controlled by the spirit well what does
that look like and what does that mean
well that's that's where we go and
that's what we talked about yeah okay
so Paul introduces a almost a correct me
please he almost he where Jesus lived
the life of Jesus Paul comes in any
places like a another layer intellectual
layer upon the life of Jesus he adds to
the life of Jesus this this rubric of
spirit and logos I guess John did that
too and then where does that lead and
that that's what the scaffold of the
church starts to build upon and build
upon and build upon so Jesus is
ministering for the most part with in
the Galilee and Judea with this small
element of Jews who are living in their
land Paul is a diaspora
Jew and he comes and so he's dealing
with the Jewish community that I think
some estimates have they were about 1/10
of the population of the Roman Empire
they had flourished in the Diaspora and
and he is dealing with okay so it's the
crazy historian
so here you have this Jew and the one
people in the world that would never
ever say someone could be a god man
because you know boy that would get
beaten out of you fast because of the
way polytheism was beaten out of the the
hebrew people basically from the old
testament prophets on through so at the
end of the story in matthew after jesus
is risen jesus they are worshiping jesus
and some doubted so then so ok so what
does Jesus resurrection mean yeah what
is his resurrect and so Paul as you know
one of the best educated brilliant
Jewish scholars diaspora scholars of his
day sees Jesus on the road to Damascus
and is like holy cow what am I gonna do
with this and so he spends 14 years and
could be in Arabia just trying to figure
this out so who is this Jesus because I
I saw him and and we have these these
people who are following it and it's a
terribly messy dynamic situation but
Paul starts to figure this out and he
starts to gain a following and he starts
to write letters and of course
generations after people begin to look
back at those letters and say there's
really something about the way Paul was
putting this together and you know over
decades and centuries this all then
accumulates into a corpus and on and on
what would you say the seed of Paul's
idea is certainly just that the essence
the the real question Paul had so in the
in the time if you look at at the end of
the book of Daniel you get these these
ideas about resurrection and so then hmm
Paul appears to Jesus or Jesus appears
to Paul on the road to Damascus he goes
back to you know he goes back to
Jerusalem and what is this crazy talk
about resurrection so he talks to Peter
he talks to James and he begins talking
to people who saw Jesus after he had
arisen and because what does it mean
theological II that Jesus rose from the
dead and ascended because at that point
the Jew
were anticipating a general resurrection
of the Dead at the end of the age what
does it mean that Jesus rose in the
middle and that's essentially what he
has to work out and so if Jesus rose it
was a rose in the middle and if Jesus is
the Messiah what does that do to our
theological system and our practices and
and what does that do to the the wall
between Jews and Gentiles yeah and all
of this stuff that Paul had been
practicing so that's what he's trying to
work out and what what's the key that
gets him to to figure it out does he
figure it out or does he just initiate a
process of trying to figure it out well
he initiates a process that continues on
into the church you know it isn't until
you start having these church councils
that they start formulating these ideas
about you know Trinity what is the
Trinity you know one God three persons
what is Jesus two natures I mean all
this theological stuff that yeah then
it's connected with with Greek
philosophical categories yeah but but
very early on I mean the Apostles Creed
is a very early document and right away
you begin to see God the Father God the
Son God the Holy Spirit all of that is
developing mm-hm Oh is your denomination
very visual at all like the Greek
Orthodox or the Catholic Church yes no
no I'm from a tradition of iconoclasts
we were breaking Jonathan pojos
masterpieces so maybe if you know John
and I are friends that'll that'll heal
some of the wounds of the past well
there's nothing like Christians being
very unchristian like to one another to
spark history that's right and
Christians have been doing that for a
very long time much to our shame yeah
well I mean I I think it's just a
manifestation of human nature but I
bring that up because I wonder how how
does your denomination visualizer or
conceptualize I guess it's not visualize
its conceptualized that the Trinity as
as a mimosa circuit or a process of the
spirit well well actually the logo of
the Christian Reformed Church in North
America is a triangle and a cross put
together okay so that we're a very
unusual denomination but we at least
have that yeah and but we're that the
Christian Reformed Church is is a
creedal Church and so we we subscribe to
the main Creed's of the church
Calvinism you know it's it's ironic I'm
having a conversation with some some
other Protestants you know our Calvin
was was John Calvin a Calvinist and
probably the best answer is no he wasn't
well what on earth do you mean by that
and that in the early phase of the
Reformation there Calvin in the reformed
tradition called themselves Reformed
Catholics because they looked at the
Roman Catholic Church at that point and
said there needs to be some correction
on some of these things and and some of
the corrections involved a lot of the
Reformers were pastors were rather you
know smart pastors who said the church
needs to recalibrate some of these
things and because of also some
political things that were going on in
northern Europe at the time they had the
freedom to begin trying to recalibrate
things and that's what a lot of the
Protestant Reformation was but it the
conversations the early conversations
didn't go well and maybe someday we can
put the church back together I think
that would be a good thing I mean it
seems like historically the church has
always been in a process of correction
and Reformation and and protestation and
and revision constantly seems like
potentially with the influence of
whatever dr. Peterson is putting into
the recipe it seems like if there is an
influx of people back into the church it
will necessarily have to go through
another Reformation yes do you see that
happening and and how do you see it
needing what needs to be reformed or
corrected well part of
part of why I have stayed on this is I
saw very quickly that many of the people
who now we're becoming interested in
Christianity and the church and the
Bible we're going to have a difficult
time finding their way into a church and
I don't mean into sort of the church I'm
into because to be a Christian is part
of your you're part of a local body of
believers with all the messiness you
know it's it's like someone saying well
I'm married but I don't actually have a
spouse I mean that makes no sense
because being married means figuring out
how to actually live with someone which
is a and and to promise you're gonna
live with that person for the rest of
your life and it's like well that's
almost crazy but that's what being
married is and so I very quickly saw
that boy so so Jordan Peterson followers
they're not going to fit into the
mainline because of that left of that
left wing hit job done on Jordan
Peterson so once you say Jordan Peterson
everyone's like oh the the the all right
misogynist transphobic yeah professor
from Canada so they're not gonna fit
into the mainline they're gonna go into
the evangelicals and you say Oh Jordan
Peterson the guy that talks about Darwin
and young so em Angelica's are gonna
have a problem with them and so a lot
have gone to the Orthodox and the
Orthodox or will say sure come on in
spend a year or two with us and study
catechism and and maybe but or just
maybe we'll let you be a member and God
bless them some people have been
termined enough to go through that but a
lot of folks are gonna be like I don't
know anything about this so I'm I want
to see then be able to find homes in
churches mm-hmm and so it would need to
you're thinking that it would need to
either retrofit actual churches that
exists now or just start some sort of
pamphlet or process of how to form a
church or how to be a part of a church
and and what does it mean to be in a
church
yeah I really don't know so I've just
been holding meetups and we just talked
and okay I'll back into the YouTube
thing I'm probably backing into this
thing - huh but but part of it is see I
also think I wouldn't have paid much
attention to Jordan Peterson if I didn't
think he was offering some light in
terms of some longer-term issues that
Christianity and the West has to deal
with and I think some of those issues
have arisen around science and religion
why don't one of the difficult things
that has been going on in Christianity
is that in some ways if you're reading
the book of Genesis you're reading a
story about a flat earth with a bowl on
the top of it and then when you go to
school
you're imagining we're on globes
circling circling the Sun and so what
that means is people have kind of a
split world hmm and and that that
division of the world happened in the in
the in the fallout of the Wars of
Reformation that ravaged Europe for a
long time and we've not really put that
together and so Peterson comes along and
somehow through science convinces
atheists that maybe they should think
about Jesus at the top of the hierarchy
and it's like I I don't know that we can
exactly describe what's happening but
our brain knows it's happening
hmm and we're gonna it's worth it's
worth working on so it's like the Jordan
Petersons initiating a discussion that's
probably happened elsewhere but he's
bringing it to the front of our
consciousness of getting these two
parties to turn back towards each other
and recognize each other and instead of
being kind of enemies but to turn around
and kind of like embrace in a way
well if Jonathan Pozzo and I can be
representatives of the church I hope so
I don't know how many of us there are
out there okay yes but what's that
what's one of the big things that needs
to
happen to make a reconciliation between
believers of the Christian God or
practice practitioners of the Christian
faith and science or or what you call
positivism and I'm never quite positive
what positivism is but so so what
happens tour in the nineteenth century
is with all of this excitement about
what we can begin to see ourselves doing
with science and technology we begin to
imagine that the world is made up of
atoms and we can put these atoms
together if you look at say early atomic
theory before a lot of the stuff in the
early 20th century
I mean atoms are these building blocks
and if we can start manipulating atoms
with chemistry we can do all these great
things yeah and we can build the world
one of the one of the one of the most
interesting books I read a couple of
years ago was about the Oneida community
in upstate New York written by and an
ancestor of some of the people there I
mentioned it in some of my videos it's
like you know free love and a well set
table something like that okay and that
community basically epitomized the the
height of the height of 19th century
optimism about what you can do by
joining religion and science together
and in some ways brave new world also
has some of that because now we can tear
down all the old things and yeah and
we're going to a practice we're gonna
practice eugenics and we're going to
practice technology and we're gonna
create the perfect society here in our
little compound in upstate New York
which was the most Christian area in you
know in North America that was the
burned-over region and and so you know
what what happens is complete chaos yeah
utopia doesn't come and I can't imagine
yes but it's a it's a fascinating book
and what's amazing is you read that and
you begin to see oh wow you know the
kind of stuff we're dealing with now
it's not new you
yeah it's you to us cuz we're only 30 40
50 years old yeah but it's not new
we just we should we live these short
little lives and we never study history
yeah and so we think oh my goodness
women are oppressed yeah oh my goodness
men have to live labor under tyrannies
yeah it's something you keep on bringing
up several times now it's this idea of
heaven on earth what is up with that
impulse that we have is that a unique
thing to our culture is that just
something embedded in the human animal
the human Beast well don't we want it
don't we want everything to be good
don't we want it to be good all the time
you know so you know when sam harris is
talking to Jordan Peterson and he starts
talking about you know you know we can
calibrate these little our little sense
of goodness that's true because because
this is better than that I'm not having
not stepping on a nail is better than
stepping on a nail and and we kind of
scale that up yeah but I was just
working on my Sunday sermon and you know
so I'm talking I'm gonna probably the
introduction of my sermon is going to be
this this lovely little truce that
happens the first Christmas of world war
one when you know they stopped fighting
for that eat that next Christmas Day and
they play soccer and they share food and
we tell this story and we say ah isn't
it isn't it wonderful that if we can
only deal with each other as
face-to-face people then then we won't
have wars and it's like have you ever
seen a divorce you ever heard of
marriage counseling we we want
everything to be good yeah well why it
isn't it isn't so simple because we have
these structures and we say well why
couldn't World War one have ended with
that with that Christmas Day Troost well
I don't know that the Belgium's
on whose farm they're playing soccer
would really want a seed to the Germans
and we've got all of these ties all up
and downs so
yeah try heaven on earth why don't you
why don't you be heaven now and see how
well that goes for you so it's it's just
rather facile thinking and and what we
don't realize is how we really are deep
down and and I think Peterson nicely
talks about Dostoevsky and and Tolstoy
both of whom made the point I mean
Tolstoy if you've never read Tolstoy his
confession it's a little book but it's a
powerful little book and and he talks
about as Peterson says the fact that he
had a great career he had a wife that he
loved he had beautiful children he had
all kinds of money and he could barely
keep himself from hanging himself what's
with us that we are deeply broken and we
don't really have a clue how to fix
ourselves that's how we are and how does
Christianity come in to the equation at
that point or is it at that point that
Christianity starts to present I think
experientially for a lot of people it's
exactly at that point where Christianity
comes into the picture I I was listening
to Marc Maron Marc Maron had a podcast
and I that I started blogging after this
because I guess I got sick of losing
references Marc Maron had a podcast and
Marc Maron I don't know if you've ever
heard his podcast he the intern he's a
comedian he interviews comedian
comedians and he's a funny guy
but he's also a comedian and recovery so
he like many people wrecked his life on
alcohol and drugs had to get sober his
take on Christians were Christians are
people who couldn't get sober in any
normal way so they had to do the
absolute crazy thing like you know
deliver their life up to a higher power
and so it's exactly at that point when
we recognize how out of control we are
that we begin looking for a solution
that is beyond ourselves
yes and so the Christian story I think
in in Peter Sounion fashion although I
don't think Jordan Peterson quite has
the whole Christian story in terms of
what he's presenting or
Packaging currently the Christian story
is that we are in such bad shape
we needed a rescuer to come but this
rescuer has to work on various levels if
you can't save the world without dealing
with the individual and you can't deal
with the individual without also dealing
with structures it's always a both an OK
and so Jesus comes and in that story
begins that process now also built into
Christianity is the fact that no
Christian has the answer if I tell you
well I want you to pray and I want you
to fast and I want you to tithe and this
is how you're supposed to treat the
people around you then the kingdom of
heaven will come know that the kingdom
of heaven is always a gift and what
Christianity is is living in between two
ages the age of sin and death or the age
of decay and the age to come and so if
you live in the middle of those ages
which is exactly what Jesus does you
will get what he got and you say well
that doesn't sound like a good deal he
got crucified yeah but he also got
raised well how do I believe I'll get
raised well why did he believe he was
gonna get raised there's the challenge
and you might look at that say well I
don't want that deal I'd say oh okay go
try another see how that goes for you
that living between two ages sorry that
living between two ages makes me think
about what you were talking about in the
episode that I watched and one of the
things that you were speaking about was
patterned and matter and and that
pattern is always governing matter and
what I was thinking while you were
talking about that I'm like well what
about randomness what about variation
what about what about being alive being
aware that I am exerting pattern pattern
over matter I'm on the cusp between
matter and that which is not matter that
which is not yet which could be the
spirit in a present sense or the future
in a in a
towards not prisons since yet
well randomness is easy to see if you
roll it if you roll a die does that die
when we say well I can't print what
randomness essentially is is our
inability to predict something more
complex than we can think about
that's what randomness really is it
isn't a true materialist will not say or
should not say when it comes right down
to it that anything is random everything
should be the product of the system
that's around it that's what a
materialist will say so so on one hand
there is no such thing as random so then
you have the question well well what
kind of world are we living in because
so if you listen to let's say Matt
Dillahunty I did a bunch of videos about
his conversation with jordan Peterson
Matt Dillahunty will say well it's the
laws of physics well then I would ask
first of all are those laws of physics
material they say no well what are the
laws of physics well the laws that we
discern are patterns that's what we
discern and so then we notice those
patters and rewrite them down but that
doesn't answer why those patterns exist
as they do so then the question is well
where do those patterns come from so
then the question is well what I was
just actually reading a blog today by
someone who was went took this journey
from atheism to Christianity partly
because he sat down and was read David
Bentley Hart and Edward fessor who was a
Roman Catholic so in Orthodox and Roman
Catholic and and they were basically
saying no materialist can answer the
question of why anything exists and
that's really where theism begins with
that in question so let's imagine Frodo
in middle-earth asking himself why he
exists and so then I asked people well
if Frodo weren't going to look for
Tolkien where could he find him and
Gandalf and himself probably in Sam a
little bit too and they joined the orcs
you know that's right you will you will
begin to see tolki
all around you and this historically has
been the answer that that Christianity
has given is that where I could that why
that even the question why be kind of
like a just a accident in and of itself
like we only need why in order to figure
out how not to die right so so that why
we have the capacity for why that
outstrips our our our need for wise once
we're comfortable enough to not need to
ask why all the time to assess threat
right so it's a it's a threat assessment
tool that is now just it has so much
excess so then we retroactively leaf it
all these structures on to the why just
a channel that that energy that that
prompt that's only there for survival
well why I'm gonna use it again why
would that be true on the small scale
and not true on the large scale what do
you mean well we know that why is an
important question for survival yeah and
we say well maybe that's only important
for survival well why would that be true
in the small scale and not of the large
scale why would it not be like a fractal
that in fact scales up yeah so which is
why we keep asking it because we are
ourselves part of that fractal Aang
that's right yeah and so so by I'm just
trying to distill what you said so by
scaling up like there's the why of the
immediate moment and then the why of the
day the why of the week the why of like
what's my next five year why and then
what's the why of my life and then
what's the why of those around me what's
the why of the people my tribe in my
state and then you eventually get to the
point where you're asking what's the why
of the world and if you're a materialist
who says you know there is no why well
then that scales all the way back down
to and so you know for example you well
why should I love my why should I love
my child why should why should a mother
sacrifice herself for the welfare of the
child
well that was built into me by
species well well Bret Weinstein says
well why do we have to why do we have to
live out the programming that these
tyrannical genes have given us yeah
well which programming are you not going
to live out so so that's so someone
comes to me you know again after I
started my videos and same same story he
actually he had he had been a Christian
then he gave the whole thing up a lot
because of science and then he had a
child and he began to realize oh my
goodness what wouldn't I do to protect
my child i I can't believe this is just
programming
I honestly must think this has to scale
up there there needs to be a real reason
why I love my daughter that's bigger
than just well this is just my
programming that there's some source um
truly good thing about sacrificing my
life and my well-being
you know maybe not dramatically but
every day what a good parent does is
every day they sacrifice their life for
their child and we say that's good and
and look just like you said while all
that generosity scales up and up and up
mm-hmm
and we all benefit from it hmm and so in
a way to believe in God or to postulate
a primal cause or or an answer to the
why that you cannot know but that Eve
that allows you to merge yourself or to
let go of the the smaller difficulties
that would cling to you I guess in a way
like the the weight of the world not
necessarily sin is a mistake but the
weight of the world is able to be
offered up to a greater will or yes but
how do you how do you slip and not slip
into like a facile like this happened to
be because God said that this would
happen to me and not turn around and
cleaning up your room how do you prevent
yourself from not like actually taking
care of yourself if you completely
surrender everything up to it the great
why
well just about every one of my sermons
I I end with misery deliverance
gratitude so misery is the reality of
this world which is not only not only is
the problem of the world my enemy the
other guy but the problem is in here the
the line between good and evil runs
through every human heart
Solzhenitsyn that's right deliverance
God saw what a mess we were and fruit
through total generosity sent his son to
become our victim and and didn't
intervene okay so there's the
deliverance now gratitude think about
Saving Private Ryan these these soldiers
you know battle all the way through
d-day and find you know find Private
Ryan his brothers are dead and they've
lost a bunch of their buddies on this
insane mission to save him because
someone up in Washington doesn't want
bad PR and Tom Hanks looks at Matt Damon
and says earn it
you know and Matt Damon could have said
lucky me battle through Europe but but
something in our heart says we're moved
by the the heroism of of what has
happened and so then in the Gospels you
know that the Centurion looks up at
Jesus dying and says surely this man was
the son of God
we're moved by that we're moved by that
display of generosity and self giving
and then when we see something that
beautiful we say that's what I want to
be like and every kid that has a noble
father you know and that's me my father
was it was a nobleman he poured his life
out for the Forgotten people of Paterson
New Jersey and you know on one hand as a
little boy I'd look at him and say gosh
what an idiot remember I remember there
was once that we have this we have this
rope that we're playing with as a kid
you know there's a rope okay it's just a
rope and and I and I'm my father is
outside doing something and some kids
come up and ask him for a rope and they
say we'll bring it back
and my father had no guile and said sure
and he gives him the rope and I go out
I'm like they're not gonna bring it back
he just gave away my rope and I'm ticked
off but now later I realize yeah he
probably shouldn't have given away the
rope but what he did for these people
was so noble and so beautiful at some
point you begin to say what am I gonna
live my life for and and this is what
happens with every mother I I don't have
it up anymore but a friend of mine very
successful man grew up poor black kid
and Watts in LA and his mother kept him
out of the gangs made sure he was in
school
put him through high school she did this
by cleaning other people's houses and
being a janitor and I'll tell you and
that woman died he threw her the best
funeral you could imagine he had
senators and mayors and why because he
knew what it cost her for him to be what
he is yeah that that's what it why live
any other way
it's beautiful its glorious its heroic
it's gorgeous huh there's the gospel hmm
there's why we don't say Jesus died for
my sins I'm gonna send more no cuz it's
beautiful and I want to be like that hmm
and and when you do send you're not
you're creating you're corroding that
great society that that is afforded you
as much as you've been afforded without
realizing it and so far as you're taking
it as granted everything that's right
right
I'm school I'm squandering Tom Hanks
sacrifice to save me from certain death
on d-day mm-hmm why what did what you
know that's that's hellish in and of
itself
you see it's all built in all the way
out which is well
every time I sin I'm inviting a little
bit of Hell into me it's it's that it's
that selfishness it's the one who looks
at his kid and says yeah I probably
should play a game with you but I'm just
gonna be self indulgent it's it's the
mother that that looks at the child and
sees all my daughters
my daughter's got it better than me I
hate her for it so I'm gonna be the kind
of mother that nobody wants so there's
just a little bit of hell and again
Peterson gets this right to it all
fractals out yes heaven and hell and
that doesn't discount that doesn't
discount the reality of it ad extremes
because extreme realities exist too but
it just says that it's all connected
so taking that into account that
gratitude taking also into account
humility that you can't know everything
I think you were bringing this up and
the episode the other we just can't
we're unable to see everything we have
to distill it down into cartoonish
symbols so taking those two things
gratitude humility and yet still the
desire to change the world then how do
you go forth and change the world how do
you become an activist in the world and
not fall into the trap of that heaven on
earth dystopia you know right now with
the patreon thing I was looking at all
this stuff this morning and I was I was
just I was just torn by it because I am
a very I'm very much a non activist and
and I get I think another thing that
Peterson gets very right is clean your
room do you want to you know do you want
to change the world raise your children
right is there anything harder than that
probably not do you want to change the
world
start in your little place this is why
I'm a small church pastor and you know
I've got ambitious fantasies just like
anyone else but one of the things that I
realized you know by watching my father
and how he pastored was you know love
love these forgotten people in in the
first word of pattern
and hmm that's enough you're just a
human being just just just do the right
thing start there you know the world is
too big for you and that's again part of
the reason I love tolking is that you
know yeah you've got gandalf and you've
got Aragorn but but who actually saves
the world well it's it's Frodo and and
in fact he almost does it
unintentionally it's virtually an
accident yet causes finally the
destruction of the Ring
yeah and that's how we are so and and I
can again I think Peterson is right when
he says you know yeah you're you're 19
and and you're you've been you're all
filled with these ideas that you've got
you're from your professor and go out
and do this and I was that way as 19 -
I'm gonna gonna change the world and
then you realize I'm an idiot like you
said I can't even I can't even get my
stomach to obey me
yeah so so why don't I begin right here
yeah I'd like you brought up another
thing that you brought up is that we all
want to be gods and and we continually
find that we're horrible gods and the
the I I don't mean to be flippant but
one of the things that we all can do is
die like that's something we can do no
matter what so Jesus is modeling and
kind of God that we all can do I'm gonna
use that it'll appear and so if I don't
see Peterson says pastors or liars were
also thieves so you just gave where'd
you get that from I got that from
Benjamin Boyce he gave anything they all
want to be gods and Jesus says you want
to be a god here I'll show you what
God's name
yeah real God you know every King asks
young men to die for him the real God
mm dies for the young men yeah yeah
that that's uh that's wonderful this has
been a wonderful conversation because
like I think you kind of like forced us
to couch it into ourselves and like what
we do and and and making it realistic
and the one of the traps of entering
into a philosophical debate or a seal
you know Adventure is that you're
talking about all these ideas that are
very nebulous and Petersons really good
and it's it's art what he does is art
it's a rhetorical it's he's at the
pinnacle of the rhetorical game but how
do we make that real to real people how
do we how do we give a place for people
to take ideas and like interact with
each other through the ideas and the
ideas can melt away and hopefully
they're good enough ideas that they can
keep on propagating that communion and
and it seems like we might be on the
cusp of or we're probably always been on
a cusp but this is just another form of
us breaking the bread of all these all
these ideas but but doing it in a in a
buttery manner I guess that's good
that's good I think that's true and and
that's why you know people will
sometimes say well you're my pastor and
it's like yeah but you're always you're
always a Christian at the local level
you're always a Christian face-to-face
and that's probably where you're a
crappy Christian most because it's and
that's that people are like well I went
to that church and and and they were
like hypocrites and they were selfish
and they didn't know how to delay it
behave and they're playing games and
it's like yeah that's what's in church
those are the people you'll find well I
don't want to be around them I want to
be around perfect people yeah you want
to marry perfect people too and then
you're married then you think I found
the perfect person and we got married
and it's wonderful that you know wait a
few years
but they'll they'll think you're not so
perfect after a while but that's where
the real work begins
yeah and that's because hmm that's where
I begin that's where I have to start to
recognize no I'm I'm the selfish idiot
yeah okay and I can't even manage me
never mind the world yeah so a rejection
of the imperfect puts you on a crash
course towards being unable to even live
in your own skin
like you start rebelling against the
imperfect in the hopes that the perfect
will arise but you always have to snap
it back down to I can I can move this a
little further towards
but perfection itself is just a
direction it's not a state that I'm ever
going to find I'm not going to get there
and and then if you realize that we are
we are formed beings well then I began
to realize yeah my parents my wonderful
parents they weren't perfect and so some
of their crap got built into me so I've
got that crap to deal with and I've got
the then I've got the leg I've got the
crap in the subculture I grew up with or
the Christian tradition I grew up in or
the political credit tradition I grew up
in I mean it's just it's just all a mess
and I can't even see straight and that's
really where faith and grace come in
because yeah I might I might be really
disciplined about being the best person
I can be and that's where the irony then
is that strength turns into tyranny so
that's where I have to live by faith
because I've got all these ideas of what
perfection is yeah you give me enough
power and you give me enough license
I'll become a tyrant so that's where I
have to say okay I I'm probably gonna
get a lot wrong this is what I think but
I'm gonna even have to hold that loosely
but and and I'm not gonna dominate you
or or be a tyrant yeah not to ask this
is a question I love but it it bears
asking because we did bring up the why
and then there's the why of suffering
like the why of imperfection like what
would why would something that is
perfect Dane that there be an imperfect
world like what is being proved here
what is being tested or experimented
with through imperfection yeah I have no
idea the one of the interesting things
about the problem of evil is that that
doesn't get raised until about the 17th
18th century which is a really
fascinating historical tidbit hmm
because we look at it today and say well
that's the most obvious question in the
world and and it was asked by a variety
of people church fathers dealt with it a
little bit and came up with some answers
but but basically the assertion that I
can't believe in a God because of the
suffering in the world really didn't
rise probably we see it after the Lisbon
earthquake fire and tsunami it was a
terrible tragedy in Europe so there's
something there connected with the
Enlightenment where we began to think
that we could in fact perfect the world
so those things seem to be connected but
we don't know why the usual answer was
given by job's wife in the book of Job
where job's life falls apart and job's
wife says curse God and die or or the
answer given by Odysseus which is I'm
gonna be crafty enough to set the gods
against each other and outfox them it's
only much later that we began to say I
can't believe in a God because the world
is messed up the ironic thing about that
answer though is okay then what's your
plan
utopias because people say oh I have a
plan to make the world perfect and I
hear I say oh really okay you should
have a perfect pipe yes that's a good
that's a good kind of a break down of
that progressive thinking like again
it's that kind of like a Christian or
even pre-christian story about this
rebellious Ness this rebelling against
something rebelling against the obvious
rebelling against limitation it could
even be a very righteous rebellion a
rebellion against evil like how much
more righteous can you get yeah but
something sneaks in something's caught
in the blind side of your searing hatred
for the evil that then launches you on a
path of amplifying everything evil
inside of you or even everything just my
minor minor ly imperfect becomes evil
because it's then magnified yep that's
exactly right exactly right well thanks
for your time oh this is fun like I said
I enjoy your channel I watched I watched
the video you put up today I hope it
stays up it was he it was boy it was
hard to watch but
poor okay see I was thinking about that
when you're talking about like turning
the other cheek and I was playing I was
playing some art of war stuff there I'm
like this needs to be talked about and
there's the whole thing like I could be
risking something but there's the other
thing like that I've tried to practice
in entering into like the critical
discourse like how do I be humane to the
person how do I not dehumanize because
that is exactly the last thing I want
happening to people so it was just I
don't know I'm sure I didn't walk that
tightrope correctly but well this is
where loving me people people get so
flippant today well well my religion is
love well do you know how hard it is to
love a human being hmm well maybe when
they're a baby well you know why it's
sort of easy to love a baby unless it's
in the middle of the night it's sort of
easy to love a baby because the baby
isn't capable of much power yeah well
and and so what does it mean so for
about five years I literally had a
homeless man who lived outside my door I
couldn't open my door without stepping
over him and so then I had to live with
this question what does it mean to love
this this person who is a drug addict
and an alcoholic and he's got mental
illness and and you know and it's it's
tremendously hard to love another human
being especially because there's lots of
us so it's it's so difficult to deal
with those questions and and like you
said it's sometimes feels easier to do
it in the abstract but that's not the
kind of love we need to do so no
especially and go on okay well
especially in in this current world and
the digital landscape it's very easy to
just completely dehumanize the other
person like you know I can do as much as
I want against this person because
they're not really real or they're
really smaller they're really far away
or you know like they'll never touch
them because there's billions and
billions of people but the problem with
that is that that scales like you're
saying it the fractal starts to grow and
then what we end up doing is entering
into and propagating a pessimist
Society and a nihilistic society that
then begs for a tyrant reformer or some
sort of Christ where somebody just come
in and pulling the plug I guess yeah
it's true none of us are gonna get out
of this alive but we can all be dying
God's in her own small way what was your
what was your solution to the man on the
door I was it just a daily solution and
I lived a lot of daily solutions he
eventually attacked a member of the
church okay
and because he would garbage pick he
brought all kinds of garbage here and
when I was around I managed it but when
I went on vacation I wasn't here and I'm
about 64 230 pounds he never attacked me
yeah but he attacked an 80 year old man
he didn't attack him badly cut up his
hand but neighbors saw it called it
means four we tried to get the police
involved for years but it's a
complicated business but at that point
he crossed the line spent a year in jail
and now there's a restraining order he
hasn't shown up he just got out of jail
a couple months ago he hasn't shown up
yet
he probably well and the saga will
continue but you know he's I consider
the man my friend and I very much want
good for him but he wasn't an easy man
to love people would you know he'd get
you get ticked off at me if I threw away
a bunch of his stuff cuz became a health
hazard and and then he'd be out there
screaming threats against my life and
people are like he just threatened to
kill you I said yeah he does that all
the time
but you know it's it's but you know okay
so there's a there's an example that we
look at and say oh but life is full of
such examples maybe not quite so stark
but you know parents and children that
don't get along husbands and wives that
don't get along neighbors that don't get
along
nations that don't get along you know
these things do scale and so
work work on them you know you want it
you want to be a Christian well try
loving the people that you share your
home with what does it mean to love them
it's a good place to start it's really
hard and and it doesn't mean always
being a doormat because sometimes love
means saying no parents know that yeah
yeah and God knows that yeah what what
walk walk softly and carry a big cross I
guess would say yeah I'm getting lots of
good stuff yeah follow me on Twitter
like there's things that are both for
and not for church
[Laughter]